QUESTIONS/COMMENTS ON WATER BAPTISM

August 31, 2007

I was reading John David's away message tonight. It was a passage from John 3, about being born again. As far as angels being born again, or any other creature in heaven, I found this to be interesting. I don't know if I am thinking about this backwards or no, so here is what I am thinking:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So, I guess we are "born of water" when we come from our physical mother? That's what it first looks like. Based on that assumption, I thought, "Well, angels never were born like that." So, I am wondering if angels and other creatures in heave have been born of spirit, but not of flesh; and, hence, are not of the kingdom of God. That seems a little backwards from the way I have always thought of this...

But wait... I have another question. "Except a man be born of water." He wouldn't already be a man if he was born of water? So... is Jesus description here only applying to Nicodemus (and other Jews of his time), since he is referring to water baptism? Or! was I born with both water and spirit when I received the holy ghost?

...that ended up being more interrogative than expected. Thanks,

Elijah

Hmmm.... Let me think about this.

I don't think that Jesus was telling Nicodmeus that his baptism in the Jordan River by John the baptist was a birth. There is no indication that anyone in the Bible ever thought of John's baptism as a "birth by water". If so, then Jesus would have told Nicodemus -- if Nicodemus had not already been baptized by John -- that he needed to be born two more times. The natural birth was Nicodemus' first birth ("born of water"), and the baptism of the holy ghost would be his second birth. No one receives both at one time; the second is for those who have experienced the first.

As far as angels go, we cannot say that because they are not born again, or even born the first time, that they are not in God's kingdom. God can create beings, and has done so, that are in His kingdom without being born at all. Being born again in order to enter into the kingdom of God is required only of humans, those fallen creatures who have been born on earth and in sin.

Dad (JDC)

May 25, 2007

In John 3:5, What is being "born of water"?

jd

Jesus explained what being "born of water" is in the next verse (Jn. 3:6). It is one's natural, fleshly birth. Nicodemus already had that birth; that is why Jesus told him simply, "You must be born again." If "born of water" referred to water baptism, Jesus would probably have told Nicodemus, "You must be born two more times"; that is, born of water and then of spirit.

Pastor John

April 4, 2007

Thank you pastor John for being of so much blessing to our lives; to all of you, thank you very much. There are no words to express our gratitude. May the Lord Jesus continues to bless your lives richly.

It was so sweet and good to get to know you all and to have fellowship with the saints. What a wonderful opportunity for us! We are in debt, to our Lord and to all of you.

May I ask an apostolic question? I was reading in 1Corinthians 6:11. It says, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

How can you respond to an apostolic that says that "the name" in the baptism in water is the one thing that cleans your sins?

Manny Jimenez

Hi Manuel:

It was a pleasure meeting you and Christina. The grace of God is with you both, and we were blessed to have been able to meet you and spend time with you. I love God's people; they are the best people on earth.

The United Pentecostal Church (UPC) doctrine you mentioned comes from a misunderstanding of such scriptures as Acts 2:38, which, as you know, is a favorite UPC scripture. In it, Peter says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins . . . "

The UPC folk see "for the remission of sins" attached only to being baptized in Jesus' name, but it went with both repentance and being baptized in water. Peter was telling those Jews to repent for the remission of sins and to be baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins. The remission of sins is what Peter said would come after those Jews repented and were baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins: the holy Ghost baptism. The consistent truth that we find in the Bible is that the holy Ghost baptism washes away a person's sins, and nothing else. Paul was convicted of his sins on the road to Damascus, but his sins were washed away only when Ananias laid hands on him three days later and he received the Spirit. Paul later taught the Gentiles that all God required of them was to repent for the remission of sins. Paul's gospel for us Gentiles did not include all that Peter preached to the Jews, namely, baptism in Jesus' name (John the baptist's baptism) for the remission of sins, and the other works of the Law.

I hope that helps make things clearer for you, Manuel. Thanks for writing.

Pastor John

July 2, 2006

Hello Pastor John,

In Acts 22:16, which baptism is it that Paul is referring to when he was speaking of what Ananias had said to him: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Looking back in chapter 9:17-18, we see that Ananias originally said that the Lord had sent him (Ananias) to Paul so that he might see again and "be filled with the holy Ghost." Then Paul's sight returned and "was baptized"...with the holy Ghost? Or with water? Or both? Is there any way of knowing?

Thanks,

Sarah

Hi Sarah:

Good question. Paul was referring to John's baptism with water when he referred to Ananias baptizing him. The gospel for the Gemtiles did not yet exist, except in the mind of God. But even if God had already revealed that gospel to someone, Paul was a Jew and, therefore, would have been required to be baptized with John's baptism. After that, Paul received the holy Ghost.

Pastor John

October 26, 2005

My Friend,

Water Baptism In The Name Of Jesus Christ is just as important as the baptism of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. Being born of water and of the Spirit is the born-again experince in full. All throughout the book of Acts water baptism and the Spirit baptism were done together by the Apostles. One without the other was not an option for the Apostles.

Kent A. Williams

Several of the folks who meet at Pastor John's house responded to these comments from Mr. Williams. Their responses are as follows . . .

Dear Kent

I, too, have received your email from Bro Gary regarding your belief that water baptism is as important as the Holy Spirit baptism. I know you have received a number of other responses so I will try not cover the ground that they have already been over.

You wrote that "All throughout the book of Acts water baptism and the Spirit baptism were done together by the Apostles."

Firstly, I must point out that no man has ever baptized another man with the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus may have used men to lay hands on another who then received the Spirit from Him. John the Baptist was quite explicit when he said, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." Jesus is the only one who can baptize with the Holy Spirit, and He is always right when He does so.

Secondly, if, as you say, "one without the other was not an option for the Apostles", then what are we to make of the Apostle Paul's statement to the Corinthians that "Christ sent me not to baptize"?

Dear Kent, the question I would like to ask you is: Do you really think that a baptism performed by men with a physical substance is in any way comparable (let alone just as important) with the baptism that Jesus performs from heaven? Surely what Jesus does is of far greater significance. In fact, isn't what Jesus does for a man the only thing that matters at all?

Water baptism was important when, and only when, it was ordained by God. John the Baptist only baptized with water because, he said, there was one "that sent me to baptize with water". John preached to Jews only. Jesus also, sent the first apostles to the Jews only, and yes, they were to baptize repentant believers in water with the promise of the Spirit baptism, but Paul He sent to the Gentiles, and Paul's own testimony is that "He sent me not to baptize." The only baptism Paul could perform was water baptism. Therefore, Jesus did not send him to water baptize anyone. If Paul did so early on, it was through ignorance or misunderstanding.

If water baptism was not required for Gentiles, then it cannot be important at all. Even when Jesus used Peter to first reach Gentiles, God clearly showed that they did not require water baptism in order to receive the Spirit. Peter's preaching to that time was, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." But God clearly contradicted this in the case of Cornelius and his household by by-passing the water baptism. Actually, He didn't even let Peter mention it. Peter's subsequent actions were done out of a complete lack of understanding of what God had done. It was only later through the apostle Paul that God gave the understanding.

Water baptism was a part of the gospel message preached to the Jews, but never was it a part of the gospel preached to the Gentiles. Water baptism, like other ceremonial precepts of the Law, was a point of obedience to God for a Jew. A repentant Jew would therefore be water baptized. The common ground between what Peter and the other apostles preached to the Jews and Paul's preaching to the Gentiles was the Holy Spirit baptism. The fact that Jews (including Paul) were required to observe ritual requirements of the Law (read Acts carefully and you will see that this was the case) is particular to them. The Gentiles had no such requirement from God. The Holy Spirit baptism, however, was essential for all. It is the only baptism that counts with God. That is why there is, according to Paul, just "one baptism".

I hope this will be of some help to you.

Damien Callaghan
Queensland, Australia

Excellent, Damien!

I am thankful for the wise men and women that God has added to my life. Your letter to Kent made me think about how few humans there are on the planet who are able (1) to even tell the truth about such things and (2) to express the truth with genuine love for the ignorant. I am so grateful.

Pastor John

and . . .

Dear Brother Kent,

I am 52 years old,and I was baptized 2 years ago with the HOLY GHOST! PRAISE GOD! I lived my whole life trying to fit in this world in sin, never feeling loved. I started praying and asking GOD to please show me why I was here. At 46, GOD gave me a job where 3 HOLY GHOST FILLED saints worked. One of those blessed souls told me her testimony of GOD'S mercy in her life. It sounded wonderful, but I was still trying to find peace in the world.

For four years, I still tried it my way, going to different churches, wanting to feel something! I never did,a nd I never was water baptized. I told the three saints that I wanted to go to one of their meetings. The first meeting I went to, I felt something! It was the love of GOD in every person there. Their testimonies and the songs they sung that night was just for me from GOD! I finally felt something real, deep in my heart and soul!

I kept going to the meetings, and praying for the HOLY GHOST, and living clean, and GOD baptized me! These two years have been the most wonderful, joy-filled time of my life! How PRECIOUS it is to hear GOD'S SPIRIT speak to me. How AMAZING that GOD'S SPIRIT PRAYS IN TONGUES through us, FOR us, TO OUR SAVIOR!

Brother Kent, I walk in the SPIRIT daily, for that is my strength against the world and the flesh. Ask GOD with a sincere heart for truth in any matter, and pray in the SPIRIT! HE WILL ANSWER! I pray you will hear and know GOD'S VOICE! The TRUTH OF GOD IS PRECIOUS! GOD ANSWERS PRAYERS! AND CHANGES LIVES!

a humble and blessed sister in THE LORD,

wanda

and . . .

Hello Kent,

My name is Jerry. I wanted to share with you my experience of baptism. It was 1995.

I had lived a miserable life up until that point. I was unhappy and sin was all that I knew about. I never had thought too much about God. More unbelief than anything at that point. I used to see Christian shows on television while I was flipping through stations and wonder how anyone could follow or believe what they were saying on them. It just looked phony and I wasn't interested.

My actions landed me in jail. I was tired inside and out. And I was hopeless.

I started reading these books about criminals who found a life with God. It took many books, but my defenses finally weakened and I picked up a Bible voluntarily, for the first time. I started reading from the begining. On the outside I looked rugged, while on the inside I was pleading for the God in this book to be real. I needed Him; He was my last hope.

I kept reading; I understood little; but it made me feel better all the while. After about thirty days, they released me from jail. It was late at night and I looked up at the stars and thought "it's gonna be okay." For the first time that I could remember, I had hope. I believed that night that God would make things okay. I was in Florida at the time. I went back to Ky, my home, and I immedietely looked up an old friend who had dropped out from the crowd I ran with. I had heard that he had changed his ways, and I wanted to know more. He soon took me to a prayer meeting that he attended. I knew nothing about God. I only knew that I felt better when I behaved myself and that reading the Bible felt good, and I knew the feeling of hope.

I walked in the door of that prayer meeting for the first time with my friend. I was overwhelmed with the same feeling that I had been feeling that month or two prior to that day. That feeling of sweet peace, of goodness, of God. Everyone there spoke with tongues and praised God freely; it was a wonderful feeling. People sang and danced under the power of the holy Ghost. "I am home at last," my heart was screaming! I was told that the holy Ghost baptism, evidenced by speaking in tongues, was the new birth. I was told that every man that repented before God and believed could have this experience. I wanted it, and I put it into action. I prayed, and I continued repenting of my old ways. God kept meeting my faith and effort with power to put an end to the deeds that had, until then, ruined my life.

We met for a Bible study one Wednesday evening. I remember I was at the edge of my seat waiting for people to start praying. I had faith that night, the kind of faith that when you put your hand into a fire on a stove that it would burn you. I believed that my time had come, and when the elders amongst God's children started praying, i dashed to the front where they were, hands held high, squinting my eyes as I approached them. I knew that when they laid hands upon me that night, i was going to get "burned" by that stovetop. And indeed I did, my feet kicked clean out from under me, and I landed flat on my back speaking in toungues. I lept up and grabbed my friend and danced around the room under the power of my new holy Ghost. I was baptized with the holy Ghost and fire. Amen.

God did that for me because I repented, and it has never ever left me. I had never been water baptized, still haven't. I wasn't even a Christian. But, I was born again, and the Scriptures say that I was made complete in Him. i later learned that you can be a christian without being born again. So I am glad that I never was one. I then was able to start learning the Bible, and my new holy Ghost.

I read in your e-mail that we were made complete by two baptisms, but Paul said to the Ephesians in chapter 4 verse5 that there is only one. I would have to trade my testimony from God for that other baptism. According to Paul, I couldn't have both. Now, of course, I was "born of water" when my momma gave birth to me. I certainly had to have that one.

I can't imagine what water baptism would add to my testimony. How can being dunked in water in the name of Jesus be as important as the Spirit of God entering my body and making me a temple of God? If God ever wanted me to do it, I'd do it twice. But it seems like I would be saying that He wasn't enough. That doesn't feel right.

I looked in Acts before I wrote you. There sure is a fight in there amongst the elders about people keeping all the ceremonial laws after they were baptized with the holy Ghost. It seems though, that Paul was struggling to keep those yokes (physical circumcision, animal sacrifices, and other ceremonies) off of the Gentiles. It seems that every ceremonial work under the old law, before the new covenant began, was just for Jews only. It was never for a Gentile. I believe that means that I am as free from water baptism as I am circumcision.

Write back if you get time.

Sincerely, Jerry

and . . .

Dear Kent,

I received your question from Gary, and thought I may try to give you some insight on this subject.

You said in your email: "All throughout the book of Acts water baptism and the Spirit baptism were done together by the Apostles. One without the other was not an option for the Apostles". Remember when Cornelius was baptized with the holy Ghost and spoke in tongues? He was never water baptized. Yet he had this blessed experience and was born again. Jesus himself said that the Holy Ghost baptism is the New Birth experience. In the old testament under the Law, Jews were required to be baptized in water. Jesus came to do away with the ceremonial works of the laws, and writes God's law in our heart's, by the holy Ghost. We now live by the Spirit of God inside of us.

My friend, I know many of people who have been Spirit baptized, without being water baptized. I received the holy Ghost outside of Christianity, and it's ceremonies! So, in my heart that tells me, that Jesus holy Ghost baptism is all I need. Before I received the holy Ghost nothing ever changed me. His Spirit was the only thing that could set me free. No water or any other ceremony ever changed me, because God changes the heart.

In Eph 4 it says that there is one baptism (Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism). Therefore we must know, that there must now only be one. So we have to ask ourselves the question, which one would be more significant: Baptized is water, or God's Spirit? Just ask Jesus. He will really show you who He is, if you really want to know, and keep your heart open for whatever He may tell you. I hope you can find this information useful.

Your Friend,

Margo Ellis

Very good, Margo. Thank you for doing that.

One comment on a specific point you made, however. We cannot say that Cornelius never was water baptized because Peter baptized him with water after Cornelius received the holy Ghost. We should say instead that Cornelius he had never been baptized in water before receiving the holy Ghost. I hope he did not miss your main point, however. It was well made. Good job.

Pastor John

and . . .

Hello, dear Kent.

I received your e-mail from Brother Gary and thought I would respond by sharing my experiences with baptism: baptism with water and baptism with the holy Ghost. I mention the water baptism I received as a child of age six while attending Christian services only to say this: all it was good for was getting me soaking wet. :) I did it because I was told to and because everyone else was doing it, not because it meant anything special to me, and it did not touch me where it counts; in my heart. It did not change me on the inside. However, I do know this; at that early age, I was already searching for something from God. Sometimes I would be the only person from my large family walking along on Sunday mornings to attend worship services, because I was very curious about God. I wondered about Him and talked to Him on these walks, always hoping that He was real, but never knowing for sure. I remember getting a white bible, with my name embossed on it in gold letters, as a gift for attending Sunday School for a whole year with no missed Sundays. Later we moved from that neighborhood and I visited other places during the next forty years, always knowing something was missing.

For many years following that water-baptism experience, I tried to find the truth about the new birth, knowing that life was too empty and meaningless without a real relationship with God. I attended services sporadically and kept changing or transferring my "membership" from this religious group to another, over and over. I would search the scriptures, but could not make a lot of sense with them. There were times I would sit and look through the telephone book, and I would call ministers, pastors, priests, and nuns on the phone and ask about their beliefs, hoping I could find some relief that way. It was always clear in my mind and heart that something was missing; I was an incomplete person, and the main chamber of my heart felt empty and nothing could fill it. As the years passed, and after becoming a wife, mother, and grandmother, I felt the emptiness even more. I knew there just had to be more about God that I didn't know about, thinking that if He were alive, He was not showing me much about Himself. I searched for answers, and did not receive them, but know now that the people I asked did not have the answers; the answers need to come from God himself. I know now that God answers our questions and our hunger for Him, our thirst for Him in His time, not ours. I started to believe that nothing on this Earth could help me, that I was destined to remain hopeless, without a touch from our dear Savior.

When my troubled teenaged son began attending home prayer meetings with his friend, I became very curious and questioned him about these meetings. Just another part of my long search...well, my mind would think...maybe I can find something about God HERE, something my soul needs to just survive this world. Let me search this new place out and see what is going on. After questioning my son about those meetings he was attending, he told me about the new birth, or receiving the holy Ghost, as described in Acts, and which is accompanied by stammering lips, or speaking in tongues, which is a sign for the unbeliever. I wasn't sure what to think, except that my son did believe this. As I watched him change into a new person as he learned about God and grew to know and love those people who have the holy Ghost and were led by and obeyed God, I saw a miracle in the making. My heart began to feel as if maybe, just maybe I had another chance to find out something, to feel complete at last. My son asked me to attend a meeting with him and I went. What awesome power filled that little room as people there began to pray and speak in tongues, worshipping God and loving Him and each other as I had never seen or heard of before, in fact had never dreamed of before. After attending just a few meetings, I was led to ask for prayer for myself, and as those dear Saints touched me for the first time, I sunk to the floor and began to speak with stammering lips speaking in tongues, as the Spirit gave utterance. God performed another miracle that day, just for me.

It will soon be the twelfth anniversary of that day, when I finally felt complete in the Lord, and knew that Jesus and God were real and loved me, and that the baptism of the holy Ghost was all I needed to feel complete. It changed me into a new creature, erased all my sins, gave me a new heart, and made me able to love Him as I had always wanted to. I received on that day a great love for the people of God also, because we are bonded together into a family who loves God and wants to do His will, learn about Him and be able to love Him and His Son continually. This is the only baptism which actually means anything, which changes a person from a miserable, hopeless sinner into a person who is clean inside and outside, who is so very humble and thankful each day for this wonderful holy Ghost-filled life, and for the opportunity to be with Jesus.

I did not mean to write such a long e-mail, but to share my experiences with you, that is what was required. May you seek God and search for the truth about His baptism. He will show those with a hungry heart what is truth and what is not.

Love, Sister Ruth

and . . .

Dear Bro Kent,

My name is Tony. I read your email this week and was excited to respond to your question on baptism.

I remember having questions once, just like you. Always wondering what was the right way to follow God. I am 36 years old, and I have had the Holy Ghost since September 2001. Before Jesus touched me, I lived pretty wildly. Always in trouble, and always thinking thoughts like "I wish I were not doing these wrong things." I had been in and out of Christianity since I was 19. I would always get tired of doing wrong and start thinking of God during these times. Then I found myself going to church. Through many experiences, such as being sprinkled in a catholic church, or repeating a prayer after a man who told me if I accept Jesus in my heart, then I was saved. The last time I got under conviction, during one of those times when I would fall away and start living wildly again, I kept wondering in my thoughts to God when I would pray, "What is real, what is right, and what is truth?"

So in June 2001, I went to a Billy Graham crusade, and thought I would rededicate my life to Jesus. At least, that is what they told me I was doing. There was something different I went through this night. All who were present at the crusade were invited to an "altar call." At least 600 to 700 people in a football stadium standing all around me, each had a prayer partner with them. They handed each one of us a prayer package, and they started explaining to each and every one of us how to pray, step by step, but I could hardly concentrate on what the man who was my partner was saying to me. Because I started looking around at all these people, and I saw so many sincere hearts crying very hard. I know I will never forget what I saw that night on these faces. I saw real emotion, and all those prayer partners had to offer them was a prayer kit and a "repeat after me" prayer. So from there I started going to a Baptist church, where they taught water baptism, being totally submersed under water.

I remember thinking, right before the minister dunked me under and said "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Spirit". My heart was racing a hundred miles per hour. I thought "All right! This is what I have been praying for." I have been sprinkled, and I have said "the sinner's prayer", and was told that I am saved. I even followed instruction from Billy Graham, but I never really changed. I always went back to what I hated more that anything: Sin! So the minister dunked me, and when he brought me up, I remember thinking, "I'll feel different. Really alive for the first time." But my heart broke when I didn't feel anything.

Two months later after being baptized, I went through a very hurtful event. I went to the Baptist place wanting to play a song for other people getting baptized. So the minister asked if any one wanted to share anything with the ones being baptized. I went up to him and whispered in his ear, that God had put it on my heart to play a song for the one's baptized. He politely whispered back, "Maybe next week." It broke my heart for him to make me feel like he was in charge and he decides who has something from God. So I left another church, but this time I didn't want to go back to the world or my wild living ways. I remember getting a thought, a still small voice said, " Leave it all behind and seek me! Leave everything you thought was right about Me (God), and just seek Me."

The Bible says, "Seek and you shall find, knock and I'll answer." God was telling me just seek Him, and He would show me His Truth. God had been convicting my heart of sin ever since I was 19, but man's outward ceremonies were getting in the way. So when I listened to the still small voice, things changed. All those ceremonies never changed who I was, just a broken sinner who needed to know God.

In August 2001, I met a man named Gary. I remember him telling me about these prayer meetings he used to go to. I heard him speak in tongues, and I had never heard such a sound before. One day I needed a job, so Gary told me about a man named Billy, and said I should go see him for a job, so I did. I went to see Billy, filed out the application, had an interview, but didn't get the job. As I was leaving, Billy followed me out to my car, and we started talking. Out of the Blue, Billy says, "I feel a lot of hurt from you." I had never met this man before. I thought, how did he know I am hurting inside? He then said that God has something for me, if I had a willing heart.

After our conversation, we met somewhere to talk more. He told me about the same prayer meetings that Gary used to go to, but Gary had fallen away. God used a backslidden brother; to get me to a Holy Ghost filled Saint! We talked about Acts 2, where the men who followed Jesus received the holy Ghost baptism. Billy invited me to the next prayer meeting. Everything in me was coming alive. It was now September 2001. I went to the prayer meeting, and it wasn't long until they started singing, dancing, shouting, and speaking in tongues! I was so excited at what I was feeling, because for so long all I wanted was to know Jesus, but all those ceremonies were in they way, until now.

It was my third prayer meeting when I got the Holy Ghost and was born again. I had gone up for prayer, and I fell back on the floor and laid there. I remember feeling more peace than I have ever felt in my life. It occured to me that not one single person in the room told me come and get prayed for, and no one told me what to pray for. It seems that all I was doing was going by what I was feeling. So while I was still on the floor, I remember I heard a voice, just like the one before that told me to leave it all behind and seek Me. The voice said "Stand Up!" With no delay, I stood up, and something hit me from my head all the way to my feet. It was very warm feeling, and then I started running all over that floor, shouting and dancing, and I heard speaking in tongues. I suddenly stopped, my eyes popped open, and I froze. Someone said, "Don't stop there! You show them you got the Holy Ghost." Then that same power from God hit me again, and it was even warmer and tingly than the first time. I didn't realize the person I heard speaking in tongues was I. I spoke in tongues for a long time after the second touch from Jesus.

So you see Kent, all of those other things I mentioned earlier never changed me. I always went back to doing those sinful things. It took God's Spirit on the inside to help me keep God's commandments. Ephesians 4 talks about one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. I followed many examples of baptism, but only one changed me, a broken-hearted sinner, into a new creature in Christ. That one baptism is the New Birth, the Holy Ghost baptism with a witness when you receive it from Jesus, and that is speaking in tongues as God's Spirit speaks through you saying, "Abba Father", by which we know we have received the Spirit of adoption, which says we are the sons of God. No man on earth can give you such a baptism.

With Love in Christ,

Bro Tony

August 3, 2005

John Clark Sr.,

Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him. When the Jews who were under the law, when they committed sin, they had to pay for their sins with the things that they possessed for atonement for those sins to get them removed. So that was a work they had to do to get rid of Sin. Now that was under the Law and the Children of Israel got under the Law by Moses because they were baptized unto Moses that's how they got under the law by baptism. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ and to be in or under the grace of Jesus Christ you must first be baptized into Jesus Christ. Because when you were born you came through the water in Adam you were born in a sinful and defiled state. You must be born again of the water and of the spirit. The water with the name of Jesus Christ summons the grace, which is the Blood atonement for your sins that is the price for our redemption. You get That Blood by obedience of the Gospel, which puts you under Grace. Because there is now nothing a man can give for the removal of his sins he cannot pay for his sins. The only thing he can do is believe the gospel, repent, confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the removal of his sins. If you don't you still have your sins and your are still in Adam and the Sin of Garden is still on you.

When judgment comes God is going to see the sin because the blood is not upon your body. Now the baptism of water is for the body but the Holy ghost is for the spirit of the Man. The spirit is what supposed to control the body but since sin came in, the body controls the spirit but Jesus Christ sent back a remedy for that called the Holy Ghost with fire, which go against the will of the flesh. The first evidence of the Spirit Baptism is speaking in other tongues as the spirit gives utterance and clean and holy life which shows that Christ is in you the hope of glory. Jesus Christ made himself known to me some years ago in the same way he did other believers that were written in the bible.

Bro. Marvin

Dear Brother Marvin:

The baptism that saves is the one that is not for the body but the one that came "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"; that is, the holy Ghost baptism (1Pet. 3:21). The water of Noah's flood was a figure of that baptism, just as John's baptism in the Jordan River was a figure of it. It is as impossible to practice John's baptism as it is to re-enter Noah's ark. Neither of those two figures exists any longer. God has moved on. I am glad you obeyed God and were baptized by His Spirit into Christ. Keep obeying Him and He will keep you from trying to return to things that do not exist in Christ, in whom is hidden all the wisdom and power and goodness of God.

Pastor John

February 20, 2003

Thought for Today.

Fundamentals of the New Testament, No. 4

"John's Baptism"

There are some facts that are so basic to one's understanding of the New Testament books that without being aware of them, one cannot possibly understand what the apostles wrote. This is the fourth of the essential truths with which every student of the New Testament ought to begin his study. Before opening for the first time any of the books written by the apostles, one ought to already know these things. Mothers, teach these truths to your children; pastors, teach these things to your congregations. These are the foundations upon which all right knowledge of the truth is laid.

Fundamental #4

John's Baptism

Early in each one of the gospels we are told of John the Baptizer, a man so great in the sight of God that even his coming was foretold by other, more ancient prophets (Isa. 40:1-8; Mal. 3:1). Jesus called John "much more than a prophet" (Lk. 7:26), and told the multitude, "Among those that are born of women, there is not a greater than John the Baptizer" (Lk. 7:28).

John was the first man ordained by God to wash others with water since Moses, who lived about thirteen hundred years earlier. This is one reason that so many in John's day "mused in their hearts of John, he were the Christ or not." He certainly was a prophet somewhat "like unto Moses", whom the ancient prophets foretold would come to Israel.

"And they asked him, 'Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ . . .. .?'"

"And he confessed, and denied not, but confessed 'I am not the Christ.'"

Not surprisingly, John and his holy work were misunderstood in his own time, even though John did his part to make himself and his work clear to Israel. The real tragedy is that John and his work are still a mystery to most of God's people. The absence of this foundation in the hearts of God's people today has resulted in a world of conflict and confusion for the children of God. Being ignorant of the truth, they are so often like "sitting ducks" for those ministers of Satan who hunt the souls of men.

We cannot understand Jesus before we understand John. That is why God sent John ahead of Jesus: "to prepare the way of the Lord." Understanding Jesus, of course, is far more important than understanding John; but that is not the issue. The building is always of more importance than the foundation. The point is that we must have the foundation of John and his baptism properly laid in our hearts before we can fully appreciate the greater one, Jesus, and his greater baptism.

From John's own words, then, and from Biblical record of the things John did, here are a few elemental truths about John and what God sent him to do:

A. Like Jesus, John was sent only to the house of Israel (Jn. 1:29-31). No Samaritans or Gentiles ever came to John to be baptized, and if they had, they would have been rejected. What John had was not for them.

B. John's baptism was not for all Jews, but only for those Jews who truly repented (Mt.3:5-9). There were many Jews who came to John to be baptized and were sternly rejected because they had not repented. John was so close to God that he knew who were prepared for his "baptism of repentance" and who were not. No one fooled John because no one could fool his God.

C. John's baptism was from heaven (Lk.7: 24-30; 20:1-8). John did not invent his baptism. He was sent by God to do what he did and to say what he said when he did it.

D. John's baptism always was accompanied by a specifically worded message (Acts 19:1-5). If John's exact message did not attend his water baptism, it was not John's baptism, as Paul taught those twelve Ephesian disciples whom he met. They thought they had received John's baptism, but they had not heard about the holy Ghost baptism. Learning this, Paul explained to them that they had not really received John's baptism because "John came saying". And since, being Jews, they were required by God to receive to John's baptism (even though John himself was dead by then), Paul re-baptized them, this time using John's words. Then, those twelve humble men received the holy Ghost baptism from Jesus and spoke with other tongues, just as John had said they should.

Mere water baptism is not John's baptism. The various forms of water baptism that Christians practice and teach are strange baptisms that Christians have invented without any ordination of God whatsoever. There are only two baptisms that God has ever ordained, John's and Jesus', and only one of them was intended to be permanent. The time for John's baptism is passed, and every other form of water baptism has been worthless to start with. For this reason, Paul proclaimed that there is but one baptism that matters at all to God (Eph 4:5).

E. John's baptism was a prophetic symbol of Jesus' baptism, the baptism of the holy Spirit and fire (Mt. 3:11; etc.). When Jesus suffered and died, bringing to men the baptism of their spirits, the purpose for John's baptism began to fade away. As John himself confessed, "He must increase, and I must decrease."

F. The holy Ghost baptism is greater (Mt. 3:13-15) and was destined to completely replace John's baptism (Jn. 3:28-30; Eph. 4:5; 1Cor. 1:10-17). John's baptism was but one of the many ceremonial symbols that God gave to Israel to point them to their Messiah. When the Messiah came and accomplished his work in Israel, there was no more need for John's baptism than there was for animal sacrifices or holy days. These things were the "shadow" of Christ, and the shadows all passed away when the light came to us.

G. John's baptism prepared Jews to receive the holy Ghost baptism.

This is the last element of confusion that needs to cleared up for this generation concerning the purpose of John's baptism. On several occasions, John's baptism is called a baptism "unto repentance for the remission of sins". On this basis, many have wrongly concluded that John's baptism remitted, or washed away, sins. But no amount of earthly water can wash away sins. Sin is a matter of the heart (Mt. 15:19-20); water baptism, being a natural, fleshly thing, cannot cleanse that part of man. Jesus' baptism of man's spirit is the only baptism that can cleanse man's heart from sin.

John's baptism was a divine seal, a testimony from John that a person had repented and was prepared for the baptism of the holy Ghost that Jesus would make available after he ascended to the Father to offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins. John's was a "baptism or repentance" because it was given only to those Jews who repented. It was for "the remission of sins" because it prepared those whom John baptized to receive the remission of sins that Jesus' baptism would give. John's baptism was "for remission of sins" not because it remitted sins but because it qualified the Jews who received it to receive remission of sins. In your Bible, you will never find one Jew who received the holy Ghost from God unless he had been prepared for the remission of sins by John's baptism.

No reasonable person can believe that earthly water can remit sins. But wrong ideas about God make us unreasonable. Plato once said that "whatever deceives, bewitches." In other words, when we relieve a lie into our souls, we are brought under a spell. Every lie comes from some unclean spirit, and we are brought under the power of that spirit when we believe it's lie. But Jesus promised that the truth would set us free. God's children need to know the foundational truth about John the Baptizer so that they can to escape the dark power of Christianity and its lies about God.

This is the fourth stone that I have used to lay out for you for a sure foundation, upon which you may safely build your faith as you grow in the light of God.

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS ON THE FATHER, THE SON, AND "ONENESS"

August 1, 2006

Pastor John:

What is it that Paul was trying to say in Colossians 2:9? I just want to learn the new way. (I have an old concept.)

Thanks.

Manuel

Hi Manuel:

Here is that verse, and the following one (Col. 2:9-10): "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity bodily, and you are made full in him who is the head of every ruler and authority."

Christ Jesus is the very image of his Father. He was sent by his Father to show us what the Father is like, and he did that perfectly because he is perfectly like Him. This is what Jesus meant when he told his disciples, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." Many have taught that by this statement , Jesus was claiming to be the Father Himself, but that is not the case. We ought to see the Father in one another every day, and by the power of the Spirit, we will live so that others do see Him. To an apostolic group that taught this, my father said one evening in a sermon deep in the hills of Tennessee long ago, "Has anybody seen God in you lately?"

Paul's phrase in Colossians 2:9, "The fullness of deity", refers to Jesus' spiritual life, not his physical body. But where did Jesus get that life? He said the Father gave it to him (Jn. 5:26), and God does not give that life "by measure" (Jn. 3:34). In other words, the Father "fills" us with it, just as Paul said in Colossians 2:10. Look at those two verses again: (Col. 2:9-10): "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity bodily, and you are made full in him who is the head of every ruler and authority."

God fills us all if we will submit to Him completely. Through the holy Ghost, we, like Jesus, become "partakers of the divine nature" (2Pet. 1:4). Through the holy Ghost, we, like Jesus, become "sons of God" (1Jn. 3:1), "and because you are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father!" (Gal. 4:6).

With your apostolic background, Manuel, I know what you must have been taught about such verses as Colossians 2:9. I hope, now Jesus has liberated you from that darkness, that you will help us spread the good news about the Father AND the Son.

Pastor John

September 13, 2004

Dear Pastor John,

I was just wondering something from reading on your website that stirred me. The new testament talks about the Holy Ghost overshadowing Mary, wouldn't this make Jesus the son of the Holy Ghost, and not of God.

Yes, it would, if the Spirit is a person. But it is not. It is God's life that He gave to His Son Jesus and that Jesus gives to us.

Also in revelation the first chapter John writes the words that Jesus speaks Rev. 1:9 "I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending..."

Yes, and in chapter 3, Jesus explains what he is the beginning and end of, when he calls himself "the beginning of the creation of God". He is the "first and the last" that the Father created. After he came into existence, the Son created everything, as His Father willed it. This is why we read in Genesis 1, "Let us make man in our image." That was the Father speaking to the Son.

also in revelation it speaks of one throne and one that sat on the throne, not two and surely not three,

Maybe you misunderstood something about the thrones in heaven. I have read of at least twenty five of them in that book.

are you going to tell me this is wrong or just pacify me by agreeing with me.

I guess, my friend, I will just tell you that it is wrong.

I am one of the arrogant and hateful "Jesus only" people you talk about and if that is how you are going to label that is fine but you got it wrong is not "Jesus only" it's "JESUS everything."

It's ok. And if you have any other comments you would like to share, please feel free to send them. And don't give up. Jesus loves you, and that means that you do not have to stay forever in the spiritual condition that you are in. We love you, too. And that means we are willing to do whatever we can to help.

Take care and stay in touch.

Your servant,

Pastor John

October 18, 2002

Until recently I believed in the same thing you discussed on Questions for your soul. That Jesus and God are two seperate entities. But after I started attending a Pentecostal church they showed me numerous scriptures showing that Jesus and God where the same person. One of the most confusing scriptures was John 14:7-10. Other scriptures dealing with this are; Colossians 2:8-9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaih 9:6, John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9, Deuteronomy 6:4, Acts 9:3-5

Please refer to these scriptures and help me to understand if they are 2 complete seperate people then what are these scriptures saying.

Thank You,

Jammie

Jammie:

The apostolic doctrine you are being taught is among the worst of all errors. I hope you escape.

Concerning John 14:7-10, the fact that Jesus is IN the Father does not mean that he IS the Father. Paul said that we are IN Christ. Does that mean that we ARE Christ? Jesus also said in those verses that "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Let me ask you, has anybody seen God in you lately? Seeing God in Jesus or in us does not make us God.

This is not complicated, Jammie. Don't become foolish by letting those men to whom you are listening puff you up by thinking that you are becoming more spiritual. Jesus is not his own Father. Concerning the doctrine you are being taught, Jammie, I tell you as Paul told a congregation that had been misled in his time, "This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you."

Concerning Colossians 2:8-9: Jesus said "All power in heaven and earth is given to me." (Who gave it to him, I wonder?) And "No man cometh to the Father but by me." If that is true, then is it any wonder that Paul says that in Christ dwells "all the fullness of the godhead [God's divine nature] bodily." We, too, you may remember, have been made "partakers of the divine nature" (2Pet. 1:4). The word "godhead" is a weird word, invented by trinitarians but used by apostolics now (they both have the same spirit). It means simply "God's divine nature". And yes, Jesus' was filled with God's divine nature. Praise God for that.

The apostolic philosophy you are being taught now, that Jesus is his own Father, will spoil you if you continue to trust it. It is an evil thing.

Concerning 1Tim. 3:16, God is still manifested in the flesh, every time one of His children is moved by His Spirit to do or say anything. In Christ, He was manifested in the ways Paul mentions in that verse. In you, He will be manifested in other ways, if you obey Him as Jesus obeyed Him. Jesus had his work, and you have yours.

Concerning Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "God" by the Father on a number of occasions (e.g. Heb. 1:8), and rightly so. If the Father sends a man to a people to do a certain work, He makes that man god over those people to do that work, as He made Moses god over Pharaoh (Ex. 7:1), and as He made the judges and rulers in Israel gods over the Israelites (Ex. 22:28). All those to whom the Word of God comes are re-created by God into beings that He himself calls gods (Ps. 82:6; with Jn. 10:34-35).

Jesus was the first and the last thing that the Father ever created. He called himself "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14). Jesus also called himself the beginning and the end, the "alpha and omega." All things were created by the Son, by the will of the Father, who had created him and anointed him with power to create everything else, and gave him a name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow--every knee, that is, except the Father's. He is the lone exception (1Cor 15:24-28). For this reason, Jesus is God over all creation, things in heaven and things in earth, visible and invisible. He created all those things, as his Father desired him to do, and surely he who created all things is God (Heb. 3:4).

Further, from Isaiah 9:6, concerning Jesus being a father, the prophets said he would be one. The Spirit of Christ spoke through Isaiah and said, "Behold, I and the children that God has given to me!" (Isa. 8:18). The Spirit of God moved Isaiah in another place to lament Jesus' early death and to declare that he would have no children ("generation") that men of earth could see and describe (Isa. 53:8), but the Psalmist proclaimed that he would have children, a "generation", who would serve him and whom God would consider to be Jesus' offspring.

Concerning John 14:16-18, I hope you have not been taught that when someone receives the holy Ghost baptism, the person of Jesus and the person of the Father come into that person.

Jammie, surely you know that when we receive the Spirit of God, what we receive is God's Spirit, don't you? Jesus is in heaven with the Father. Neither of them is here, except in spirit, much as Paul was with the Corinthian saints in spirit when they were in trouble (1Cor 5:4). When we receive the holy Spirit, we receive the same Spirit of life that Jesus received from the Father (Jn. 5:26). Jesus was also anointed by God with power to give life to others (Jn. 17:2).

Concerning Romans 8:9, the Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of Christ because Christ receive his spirit from God. The Spirit of God is the same as the holy Ghost, the same as the Spirit of life, the same as the Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of grace, and a hundred other titles. There is only one holy Spirit (Eph. 4), although it is called by many different names.

Moses told the truth in Dt. 6:4: There is only one God. And when a certain young man called Jesus "good Master" Jesus rebuked him, saying "There is only one who is good, that is God" (Mt. 19:16-17). There is only one God, who delegates His complete authority to others whom he anoints, and He sometimes then calls them gods. Where is there a problem with that? Jesus never had one. He knew that his life was in God's hands, and his prayers were heard because he feared God (Heb 5:7). Furthermore, he learned obedience to God through his suffering (Heb. 5:8).

Sorry, Jammie, I don't see the relevance of Acts 9:3-5 to the apostolic heresy. Did you write down the wrong Scripture?

Jammie, for your own good, get away from those people who are teaching you this foolishness about the Father and the Son being the same person. Make your escape before you are turned over to it.

Pastor John

On October 14, 2003...

I have now come to realize that the idea that Jesus is his father is incorrect, it has been some time and I had read this letter when you first sent it but was not convinced. Recently I have moved out of town and away from the church I had been attending. After clearing my head of their teachings, I found this e-mail in my saved mail boxes and have found your scripture very helpful in making my decision. I thank you very much for responding, It is nice to be able to look to someone for spiritual advice. I finally feel clear on my decision.

Thank You very much

Jammie

Pastor Clark,

I have read your tracts and have found really nothing to argue with you about. I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. I uphold the teachings of the Word Of God. I believe that you must obey every word of Jesus Christ. I believe that salvation consists of Repentance, Baptism By Immersion in the Name of Jesus Christ, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of Speaking in Other Tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

I do not, neither does our faith believe in the heresy called the "trinity." We believe that God is a Spirit and that he is one Spirit, not two or three as claimed by the trinity adherents. We believe that Jesus birth was the beginning of his PHYSICAL life, but that his Spirit was God, the Holy Spirit which created all things. In other words, we believe that God is a Spirit that is only seen in the body of Jesus Christ.

This is what is commonly called Oneness Theology or Absolute Monotheism. Please tell me if these views conflict with yours, because I am fascinated with your tracts.

Jason, thank you for asking openly and frankly about where I stand on these matters. To be saved from the coming wrath of God is the hope of the body of Christ, and wise children of God will examine themselves, as Paul told the Corinthians to do, to see whether we are truly in "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude). It is a good thing for you to ask me what I teach, so that not only can you discover what I am teaching but also so that I can again examine myself as I explain it to you.

Repentance from sin is, of course, required by God. Only the hardest of hearts would refuse to confess that truth (and those hearts exist, as you know). Also absolutely required, if we would receive the salvation that Jesus will bring with him when he returns. is the baptism that he purchased for us with his death and resurrection. It is not the baptism that washes dirt off the body, but the baptism that cleanses the conscience of men that will save us in the end, the baptism that was given to men after Jesus was raised from the dead (1Pet. 3:20-21).

The only other baptism that God ever ordained was John's baptism, which baptism always included the message of the baptism of Christ that would soon follow. When Paul met some disciples who claimed to have received John's baptism in Acts 19, he disagreed, pointing out that John's baptism always carried with it a message. Therefore, how could they have received John's baptism? The truth is, they had only been dunked in water by a confused man (Apollos) who only thought he was performing John's baptism. Paul then did it right.

It is clear from Paul's action that the disciples whom he baptized were Jews. He also baptized with John's baptism a few Jews in Corinth, even though he later regretted doing that (1Cor. 1). Paul explains in that same chapter that he was not sent by Christ to baptize (that is, he was not sent to minister John's baptism). This was because Paul was sent to the Gentiles instead of to the Jews. John's baptism was for Israel, to prepare them for their Messiah (Jn. 1). It was not given to John for any other people. John could have said, just as Jesus did when a non-Jew begged for her daughter's healing, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." For this reason, Paul's doctrine concerning baptism for us Gentiles was that there is only one (Eph. 4).

No water baptism has ever been ordained by God for us Gentiles who trust in Christ. The only form of water baptism that could possibly have ever been intended to be passed on to us was John's because that is the only form of water baptism that came from God. But Paul's "gospel of the uncircumcision" (Gal 2) excluded that ceremony, as well as all the other ceremonies that God required of the Jews under the Law.

But enough on that. There is more to be found on that issue in my on-line tracts, especially #16 "Have Ye Received the Holy Ghost Since Ye Believed?" and #66 "Baptism". The Tract titled "Seven Pillars" also deals with this and related issues succinctly.

As for your other doctrinal statement, the matter of the trinity, we can agree that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is nonsense. It doesn't merit much consideration.

The same can also be truly said, however, concerning the doctrine you have been taught concerning the Father and the Son. They are two beings, not one, as everything I can read in the Bible plainly affirms. The Father is greater in every way than is Jesus, His Son, and the attempt to explain this in terms of Jesus's flesh being one person (the Son) and his Spirit another (the Father) simply does not hold up. If you would like to pursue this, you can check out my on-line tracts, "The Father and the Son" and "Is Jesus God?"

I hope this answers your initial questions. You will understand, I know, that I have replied to similar questions on numerous occasions. In fact, so often have I replied to such queries that I have even contemplated having a special place on my web site for Apostolic visitors. That being the case, Jason, I would only ask you to be aware that I have limited time to respond to email that is non-specific. I would like to continue this correspondence with you, but if you would, please read the on-line articles on the subjects that concern you and then write me with specific questions that I may not have dealt with in those articles. That would be the best way to start.

Your servant,

John David Clark, Sr.

One viewer's comments concerning the emails above are as follows...

John,

It is so amazing to me that people can actually believe that Jesus is really just God, and not himself, a separate being. I hope he sees the truth in what you explained to him.

Jackie B

I do, too, Jackie. He's my brother in the Lord. We all need to preach the same gospel to this lost world. May God help us, and heal us all, and make us one as Jesus and the Father are one.

jdc

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS ON THE NEW BIRTH & SPIRIT BAPTISM

March 16, 2006

Hi John,

I was reading the TFM on One Way. I know that some, if not many, Pentecostal preachers and pastors believe and teach that the New Birth is when you receive the Holy Ghost. They preach this in their churches. Does this mean they are hearing from God and are close to coming out of Xty?

Thanks,

Jackie

Hi Jackie:

There are also many non-Pentecostal ministers who can see that the Bible clearly states that when we receive the Spirit is when we are born again. They have not received the holy Ghost; they have only been taught to believe that they have it, but they can see that the Bible teaches that those who believe do receive it.

If a man is speaking of the real holy Ghost when he says that receiving it is the New Birth, then yes, he is close to finding his way out of Xty. For many of them, however, Satan has a few final snares that can hold them inside his white-washed city. In the case of Apostolics, it is the doctrine that Jesus does not wash away sins with his holy Ghost baptism but that their ministers wash sins away with water -- if those ministers use the proper verbal formula as they dunk people in the water.

Sounds silly, doesn't it? That is because it is silly; Jesus is the only one who can wash away sins, and he does it by the power of the Spirit, not with superstitious ceremony and H2O. Nevertheless, that doctrine seems to grips men's minds like iron once it gets in there. Keep yourself free from that error.

Pastor John

March 27, 2003

Hi,

I saw your site and I think it's great that you are taking the truth of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues to the world but you have erred in some of your information. I am Pentecostal and in reading some of your material, you state that "...Pentecostals -- teach you can be born again without it..." this is not true. He have always preached in the UPCI that you must be baptized in JESUS NAME by being immersed in the water according to Acts 2:38, 8:16,19:5. That is how sins are washed away. Although you can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before being baptized the plan of salvation is not fulfilled until you follow ALL 3 steps: Repentance, Baptism in Jesus Name, and being filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. So, as for the United Pentecostal Church International goes we DO NOT preach that you can be born again prior to the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Crystal Gilson

Dear Crystal.

Thank you for taking the time to e-mail me. There is no such thing in the bible (or in spiritual experience) as the "three steps of the salvation plan", as you have said. That is the "denominational line" one must tow to remain in the UPCI, but it is not the truth. Conversion is an experience, and the fulfillment of it requires only ONE step - Spirit baptism. Once Jesus has done that, we are as much in the body of Christ as we can ever be. No other ceremony is required after that, although Jesus requires us to obey and be led by the Spirit we have received.

There is ONE experience which puts people into the body of Christ - and that is Spirit baptism (1Cor. 12:13, Isa. 28:11-12). In this dispensation, the new birth experience excludes ALL ceremony (such as water baptism, circumcision, etc.). There is nothing "men" can do to other men to help God convert them. Jesus must baptize men with His Spirit to make them "new creatures" in Christ Jesus. And that is ALL that must happen to make us "new creatures", and part of the body of Christ: Spirit baptism.

We have with us people who have received the baptism of the holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues, and who have NEVER been water baptized. To do anything else to them would be to take away the glory that belongs to Jesus alone. They are happy in God, and free in the Spirit - so what can I tell them? That the UPCI requires that they "get wet" to prove something has happened to them that Jesus already did?

Lastly, you said, "Although you can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before being baptized..." Listen to your words. You are saying that a person can receive the holy Ghost prior to conversion (which is part of the salvation steps you mention)??!!! You are saying that a person can receive the holy Ghost (God bearing witness to their faith in his Son, by the evidence of speaking in tongues), and if they are not baptized in water after that, then they will be lost??!!!! That is crazy Crystal. This may be another reason that those in the UPCI are sometimes among the hardest people we know of to reach with the gospel (the real one). If they are teaching what you are telling me, they have been spiritually blinded. I cannot make sense out of what you are telling me, because it makes no sense if you stop and think about it! Hopefully you will see that, and "come out" to where Jesus is.

There is a special section on the pastorjohnshouse.com website, just for people who have been taught UPCI doctrine. You might want to check it out.

Sincerely,

Gary Savelli

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS ON DENOMINATIONS, CHRISTIANITY, AND MORE...

May 21, 2005

Hi John,

Yesterday, I had an experience that I have not had before. The lady that I asked everyone to pray for last week died this past Monday. Her name was Beverly Smith, a black lady that I worked with for 20 years. I attended her funeral and wow, what an experience. She attended a large apostolic church. The building was full of people, most of whom were very lively and full of excitement for the Lord.

The music was loud but good. The minister that was probably second in command seemed to be full of the holy Ghost. I really liked the way he handled himself. He started off the service by saying that they would follow the program that was developed, specifically for this funeral, unless the holy Ghost wanted to do something else. The service lasted two hours. They did stick with the program but it wasn't like they performed ceremonies. I could feel the Spirit the first part of the service. The people seemed to sing and clap their hands more freely. Once the program was followed a different feeling came over the place. The people looked different. The sense of excitement disappeared. The people looked bored as if they couldn't wait for things to end.

Later that afternoon, while I was cutting my grass, I could not get those people off my mind. I felt a love for those people I didn't even know. But yet, I felt a deep sadness because I would probably never get to know them. I felt a desire to hear their testimonies. I wanted to tell them mine. I wanted to worship with them but we are divided.

I have heard you talk about this sort of thing many times in the past but I can't say that I have ever felt it like I did yesterday.

I am so thankful for the simplicity of the gospel that we have. I long to have fellowship with all of God's people.

Tom

Tom:

The pain you feel is the pain of Jesus for his people. You can't feel it without the Spirit, and without the truth, you still don't really understand what it is that you are feeling. Christianity is killing God's people; it makes them feel obiligated to perform Christian ceremonies even if they would rather just be filled with the Spirit. Why, oh why, do they cling to that death? There is nothing that hurts the heart quite the way that loving God's precious people hurts--when they refuse His call to come out of Babylon and really be free.

jdc